Welcome back to 25 Man WENSdays! I hope all you bears ate your fill on Thanksgiving, I know I sure did!

Anyways, this week we are going back to a topic we have discussed before, HotW vs NV. Last time, we talked about the general uses for each of these talents, and then applied them to the Mogu’shan Vaults and Heart of Fear. This week, we will be looking at these talents in regards to the newest raid, Terrace of the Endless Spring. Also, since that shouldn’t take very long at all, I will also be talking about my early impressions of Tooth and Claw. Let’s get right into it!

Protectors of the Endless

NV is pretty awesome here, since you can use it once with Berserk at the beginning of the fight to cleave onto all 3 bosses and generate some mean healing. It should then be up again for when you only have one Protector again and you are taking more damage. HotW is really only useful for the extra stats, but if you want that little extra passive survivability go for it.

Go with which ever you prefer, they are both good and one isn’t a clear favorite over the other.


I really like HotW for this, because there is never much tank damage so an extra CD from NV is unnecessary. Furthermore, during the day phase you can pump out some mean heals if you time it with a Sun Breath. For optimal use, precast a HT so it will land right after the Sun Breath finishes, then cast two more and finish with a Rejuv right as the healing buff falls off. You should be able to cover 2 breaths with one HotW duration so you should be able to pump out a not insignificant amount of heals.

Lei Shi

Lei Shi is another fight where you primarily take non-dodgeable physical damage in the form of Spray. This means that Nv become super powerful as it buffs your heals by a solid amount. The only reason I would take HotW over NV on this fight is if I found myself getting gibbed and needed the ext a health, but that shouldn’t be a problem unless you are undergeared.

Sha of Fear

This is another fight where the differences between the HotW and Nv are negligible. HotW provides extra EH to help take Thrashes, but NV provides a bit more dps either on the boss or the platform adds. Use whichever you prefer.

Initial Reactions to Tooth and Claw

I had all raid last night to play around with our new mechanic Tooth and Claw (which I will now abbreviate TC). Here’s what I noticed right off the bat:

- With no Vengeance, my TC absorbs around 26k damage. This changes roughly with your gear level and temporary buffs and whatnot, but it is safe to assume that when you aren’t tanking and you have no Vengeance, 1 rage = 1k damage reduced on your co-tank.

- TC procs all the time. Like seriously all the time. I made a WeakAura to track its procs, and halfway through my raid I deleted it because it is up so much. Especially during haste buffs such as Berserking or Bloodlust TC sometimes procs faster than you can use it.

- TC absorbs are not counted as a heal or absorb, so they don’t appear in Recount/Skada/WoL. This makes evaluating its overall effect a bit tricky.

- The highest I saw TC absorb was about 210k with roughly the same amount of Vengeance, so this has the potential to reduce a lot of damage.

So what does TC change about our play and gearing style? A lot actually.

- Haste becomes as good or better than Crit depending on the encounter. On certain fights you can pump out TC procs to make your co-tank take MUCH less damage.

- For gearing as a whole, rage gen stats are about as good as they can get right now. Mastery and survivability stacking is still viable obviously, but rage stats are looking better by the minute and personally I have already switched over to them.

- On fights with two tank mechanics (taunt swaps, adds, etc), guardians are now the best OT money can buy. On most fights this won’t be a big deal, but on Gara’jal for example you can reduce a ton of damage if you use TC right.

- While you are actively tanking, use TC if you already have SD up and you are at full rage and health. Otherwise it isn’t really worth it rage-wise.


  • Helistar says:

    When you say “certain fights”, do you mean that in order to effectively protect your main tank, you need some serious raid damage to keep your vengeance up? Because with vengeance down the effect does not seem very impressive.
    I’ve not tanked lately, but is there a way to abuse the vengeance mechanics by over-swapping tanks, i.e. taunt just to take one hit and refresh your vengeance?

  • Wenselaas says:

    Between random raid damage and keeping Vengeance for 20 seconds, you should still be able to have a not-insignificant contribution to your co-tanks damage intake with TC. In the grand scheme of things, it isn’t a whole lot, but every bit helps. Free mitigation is free mitigation.

  • Elamari says:

    Do we have any revised stat weights?
    Also, what order should we be gearing for 1st? Should we go for rage generation 1st (hit/exp/crit) then haste for TC or should we do haste 1st or do both about the same?


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